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Postby Mr. Orange on Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:08 am

well we could argue this for days if we got into distance and ballistics, and different loads but i won't, but i will say this:

if the bullets are silver bullets, then they are most likely solid silver, which means they will most likely not mushroom upon impact so they will have a much better penetration compared to a soft lead bullet, no? i know what you are saying and yes it applies to conventional bullets, but not solid silver.
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Postby aswilson on Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:23 am

Almost no modern firearms fire solid lead, the lead, if at all present, will always be at least partially covered with steel. Since the military is forced to use full-metal jacket rounds (softpoint and hollow-point violate international law), such rounds are known not to overpenetrate, although they certainly don't mushroom. Silver, while somewhat more dense than steel, is considerably less dense than lead, and the whole bullet would thus have less penetration.
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Postby Mr. Orange on Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:48 am

ok, i'll take your word for it, im not gonna go look up densities and shit.

oh and i wasn't referring to military rounds. just so you know.
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Postby azelito on Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:31 am

Vampires are soft, you can penetrate em with a piece of wood.
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Postby aswilson on Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:39 am

Most living things can be...
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Postby Ghostface on Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:18 am

although vampire bodies are softer than human bodies. And it isnt easy to drive a stake through a human body.
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Postby Roberticus on Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:26 pm

aswilson wrote:

Not really. .45 ACP and even up the .50 AE have far too little kinetic energy to overpenetrate. Beyond that, even many rifle rounds will stay firmly in the body; the lightest rifle round known to overpenetrate is the 7.62x51mm NATO; as this round is a sniper round, this would obviously not be fired by any of the guns in the game. Further, most rounds are designed to stay within the body.


I don't know anything about the American Toys you use as weapons, but a great part of the world uses 7,62 as a standard measure for their rifles (i.e. AK-47). This sure as hell overpenetrates a human (and leaves nothing left but sushi. :wink:)

*edit*
almost forgot...
most rounds are designed to kill
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Postby Thorbard on Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:43 pm

Woah, havent popped in for a while (so tired *twitch*) and everything starts changing.

Nice weapons guys, as usual, looking forward to seeing some player models.

On the ammunition front, 7.62 NATO is used in many battle rifles (heavier than assault rifles, more mobile than sniper rifles, lighter than machine guns), and will probably make an appearance in the game somwhere. FMJ rounds penitrate better than hollow point, which mushrooms, reducing overpenetration and causing more internal damage, frangible ammuition will only penetrate once, as it breaks up on impact.
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Postby aswilson on Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:40 pm

While I don't know whether the 7.62x39mm overpenetrates or not, it doesn't really matter. Our "American Toys" don't overpenetrate because they're designed not to. If the bullet overpenetrates, it has to go right through the body, hence, less damage. A light bullet will tumble and stay inside the body, causing more damage. But enough of that. Suffice it to say, any pistol round will not overpenetrate. Now, a word on battle rifles: a battle rifle is basically a sniper rifle without a scope (More accurately, a sniper rifle is a battle rifle with a scope.). If aimed accurately, they'll easily be as effective as a sniper rifle. Not sure what to say. Oh, and Ghostface: you've staked humans before?
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Postby azelito on Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:19 pm

aswilson wrote:Oh, and Ghostface: you've staked humans before?

Have you? And most importantly, have you staked a vampire?
I have, theyre much easier than humans.
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Postby aswilson on Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:41 am

...Okay, I'll just take your word on this one...unless someone really pisses me off :twisted:
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Postby Roberticus on Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:24 pm

aswilson wrote: If the bullet overpenetrates, it has to go right through the body, hence, less damage. A light bullet will tumble and stay inside the body, causing more damage.


- now I don't agree with you...
do you know how much damage is done when a 7.62 overpenetrates?
Where the bullet goes in there is a hole almost as big as the bullet, but on the other side you have a hole that is several inches wide.
Think about the damage done inside the body when the bullet "rips" such huge chunks out of you...
ouch

Now, a word on battle rifles: a battle rifle is basically a sniper rifle without a scope


So you count AK-47 and its clones as sniper rifles?
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as43-e.htm

Not really sniper rifles in my eyes...
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Postby Mr. Orange on Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:53 pm

Roberticus wrote:
So you count AK-47 and its clones as sniper rifles?
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as43-e.htm

Not really sniper rifles in my eyes...


i don't really consider the ak to be a battle rifle, i still think of it as a basice infantry AR. Now this is a battle rifle:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as12-e.htm

and a battle rifle is more likely considered a counter-sniper rifle, because they have the same round as the under .50 snipers and are pretty accurate. thus making them good for attacking a sniper, as you would have a better rof and iron sights for quicker target acquisition.

also, back to the ak not being a sniper. its definitely not, i don't even think an AK can shoot 1 MOA( i could be wrong). thats why there is the SVD, its basically an AK chamered for a larger round and with a longer barrel. And now that i think of it, the svd is technically a battle rifle too, though its used as a sniper. It was originally meant to extend the reach of the infantry, as a battle rifle is.


edit: now that you guys have me thinking about bullets and i got myself thinking about the svd, if that gun was in the game, there would be some cool bullet power ups that would be possible.
the svd has specialized 7.62x54R rounds that come in assorted flavors such as: incideary(spelling?), frangible, explosive, and steel core(for better penetration), i believe there are a few more.

Just imagine:
You are waiting back watchin your fellow hunters charge in through your scope, when you notice a creature of the night hiding in the shadows waiting for your team to pass so he can spring the ambush...You chamber your silver 7.62x54R explosive round and line the xhairs up with the bridge of his nose....BOOM!!!....the scope settles back in place and all you can see is a headless body and a mess of red goo on the wall.

And don't forget to scream "That's what you get you filthy camper!!!!"
lol
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Postby aswilson on Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:04 pm

Ah, sniper rifles won't be in the game, for spurious reason that I'll let a developer clarify. Also, a slight discrepency: Most sniper rifles don't even reach 1MOA, only a few semiautomatics, although bolt actions generally fire around or less than that. Also, Roberticus: what defines a rifle as a battle rifle is not its caliber, but its power. While the AK-47 fires 7.62, it's a 7.62x39mm round, a round of intermediate power. The 7.62x51mm, the round used in the Galil (The 7.62 variant, obviously), FAL, G3, and M14, is not. This round is basically a slightly shortened version of the .30-06 round; while the power is reduced quite a bit, it's still quite a bit more than that of the 7.62x39mm or the 5.56x45mm. Guns chambered for this round could not be fired full-auto with any expectation of accuracy, and hence were not true assault rifles. Any other earlier semi-automatic rifle has similar capabilities, but ease of use and reliability are generally worse, also, these rifles generally weren't referred to as battle rifles.
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Postby Roberticus on Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:04 am

what's 1MOA?
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